tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13604760.post114764889529222412..comments2024-01-01T05:14:46.672-05:00Comments on Double Articulation: Infinite Crisis: A Review of CriticismJim Roeghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16381244745309535742noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13604760.post-19488817044416467932007-04-17T22:31:00.000-04:002007-04-17T22:31:00.000-04:00I enjoyed reading this much more than I ever enjoy...I enjoyed reading this much more than I ever enjoyed reading IC. Thanks.ASKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03316818122561019102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13604760.post-1149131873476966682006-05-31T23:17:00.000-04:002006-05-31T23:17:00.000-04:00Holy moley! I got quoted here--twice! Score!Holy moley! I got quoted here--twice! Score!Matthew Ehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01007497367844755093noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13604760.post-1148369381218357582006-05-23T03:29:00.000-04:002006-05-23T03:29:00.000-04:00Thanks for the links to my Infinite posts. Your in...Thanks for the links to my Infinite posts. Your interpretation eloquently summed up the concepts I was attempting to grasp - mainly Infinite Crisis as a "meta" event rather than a conventional story.<BR/><BR/>Although the plot fell out the window by the third issue, I was fascinated by the seeming dialogue Johns was engaging with readers throughout the series. I love the idea that Superboy-Prime represents the Image explosion of the 90s.<BR/><BR/>I saw the political parallels as well, and I posted on the three-part Superman/Action arc as an allegory of "Red-state" Superman (the Golden Age guy, natch) vs. "blue-state" Superman ("our" guy.)<BR/><BR/>And, on a fanboy level, I was just happy to see Wonder Woman reinstated as a founding member of the JLA and the return of Joe Chill. Lame, perhaps, but these are the sort of things longtime comics fans live for.<BR/><BR/>(Just wish the Battle Of Metropolis had lived up to the advanced hype...)<BR/><BR/>Does this mean I'll buy the trade? Probably not. But I feel Crisis got the job done, as I'm enjoying many OYL titles and love 52 so far...<BR/><BR/>Thanks again for a thought-provoking post!Marc Burkhardthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06949686463975572297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13604760.post-1148238999297663282006-05-21T15:16:00.000-04:002006-05-21T15:16:00.000-04:00Thanks Jim!Nobody, If you liked the old design, I'...Thanks Jim!<BR/><BR/>Nobody, If you liked the old design, I'm sure I'll be switching to something new in a while. I'm always fiddling around with it.<BR/><BR/>I'll be checking out your blog too.Hate Filled Posterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00965492342916144479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13604760.post-1148231079953245532006-05-21T13:04:00.000-04:002006-05-21T13:04:00.000-04:00Interesting post, nobody! I responded over at you...Interesting post, <B>nobody</B>! I responded over at your blog, <A HREF="http://anyeventuality.wordpress.com/2006/05/21/superman-for-tomorrow-volume-1/" REL="nofollow">here</A>.Jim Roeghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16381244745309535742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13604760.post-1148227011483394882006-05-21T11:56:00.000-04:002006-05-21T11:56:00.000-04:00Have to say I miss the old design of NMH, but I'm ...Have to say I miss the old design of NMH, but I'm still a fan!<BR/><BR/>I was just reminded of your political allegory, Jim, while I read the new softcover of the first half of Azzarello & Lee's "For Tomorrow" arc in Superman. Though I was skeptical of the American foreign policy angle in Infinite Crisis, it is admittedly explicit in For Tomorrow.<BR/><BR/>The rest of my comment on it here became rather long so I thought it would be best to just adapt it as a post on my blog. Comments are welcome if anyone has further thoughts of course.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13604760.post-1148147529603358012006-05-20T13:52:00.000-04:002006-05-20T13:52:00.000-04:00shane - stream-of-consciousness typing is welcome ...<B>shane</B> - stream-of-consciousness typing is welcome here anytime! And I really like your reading of the Supermen as three generations of fandom, especially the part about Superboy as the permanently disgrunted 90s fan stuck in adolesence and wanting more of the same. This also works really nicely with evil Superboy's carving of the bloody "S" into his chest at the end of IC: a nice symbol of turning inward and refusing all change! Nice characterization of the new superman to, especially his vulnerabilty to magic--we all have that vulnerability, don't we?<BR/><BR/>Btw, if I haven't mentioned it already, Shane, the new design of <A HREF="http://www.nearmintheroes.org/blog/" REL="nofollow">NMH</A> kicks ass. Really crisp--I love the colors and that rocketship.Jim Roeghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16381244745309535742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13604760.post-1148067376785718982006-05-19T15:36:00.000-04:002006-05-19T15:36:00.000-04:00And next time I promise to write my thoughts in we...And next time I promise to write my thoughts in well formed paragraphs and sentences instead of stream of consiousness typing. My bad. :)Hate Filled Posterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00965492342916144479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13604760.post-1148067221724765742006-05-19T15:33:00.000-04:002006-05-19T15:33:00.000-04:00I read IC thinking the different Superman figures ...I read IC thinking the different Superman figures were Fandom at different stages. There's the old Superman set in his ways and unabel to change and adapt to a new world, wanting things the way they were. He had to be put to pasture so DC can form a new world. Then there is the childlike Superboy who thinks he's grown up and knows what he wants, but he causes catastrophy and violence wherever he goes with his childlike wants and needs. This kind of fits the fans of the lat 80's and 90's that fan is still around, but he wants more of the same and DC doesn't want to give it to him so he's imprisoned ("forced to stick around and complain because he'll never grow up"). Then there is the new Superman, the only on left to his own devices, to grow and change, to inspire and wonder again. This is the new fan that DC wants to bring into it's new world. The one with the weakness to magic, the flawed one, the human one. The one we can identify with these days.Hate Filled Posterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00965492342916144479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13604760.post-1148061191193882232006-05-19T13:53:00.000-04:002006-05-19T13:53:00.000-04:00You're welcome, evil robby! I think!You're welcome, <B>evil robby</B>! I think!Jim Roeghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16381244745309535742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13604760.post-1148054766607975312006-05-19T12:06:00.000-04:002006-05-19T12:06:00.000-04:00Political symbolism? You're giving this dreck pile...Political symbolism? You're giving this dreck pile WAAAAAAY too much credit. But thanks for the kind words about my review ... ass wipe.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13604760.post-1147851233740404812006-05-17T03:33:00.000-04:002006-05-17T03:33:00.000-04:00nobody - those comments are real food for thought-...<B>nobody</B> - those comments are real food for thought--thanks for taking the time! I really agree that "IC is stronger for not having too obvious political parallels"--though I can never resist teasing a few contemporary parallels out of stories about devious (though simple-minded) "masterminds," tendentious though they might be!<BR/><BR/>I love your metafictional theory of Luthor/Superboy, especially your reading of Alex Luthor as the DC editors. To build a little on the point brought up earlier about the Superboy/Liefeld connection, maybe what we're seeing here (in the conflict between Alex and Superboy) is a wry dramatization of approaches to continuity-tweaking: Superboy is the brutal, bull-in-a-china-shop ret-conner of yesteryear, while Alex Luthor (who literally embodies the will of the DC editors) is the new breed of continuity re-arranger. The fact that they're both villains is hilarious. As you say: "Alex is the DC editors who are on our side, trying to fix what we ask them to, but who just screw everything up in the end"!<BR/><BR/>Ah, but I love 'em all the same.Jim Roeghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16381244745309535742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13604760.post-1147837004476526402006-05-16T23:36:00.000-04:002006-05-16T23:36:00.000-04:00I haven't read IC word for word, but from skimming...I haven't read IC word for word, but from skimming each issue in the comic shop for the last seven months one of my least favorite parts was Wonder Woman's sudden conversion (or re-conversion?) to killing being always wrong. Greg Rucka had been talking up at convention panels that WW was not going to regret killing Max Lord and that he was (I thought) going to give her at least a credible position, which seemed like it would give her an interesting relationship with Supes and Bats. Oh well.<BR/><BR/>I don't think the political subtext is strong enough to justify Infinite Crisis as an interesting story because from your description it doesn't seem that IC is about Bush any more than any other perceived or real dictator. I'd say the President Luther storyline has a stronger claim to implying the devious mastermind interpretation of Bush. Admittedly I dislike contemporary references in my comics, whether to pop songs or presidents, because they forever date the stories (do I have to explain to my kids who Hanson are?), so I think IC is stronger for not having too obvious political parallels. (Of course I might change my mind once I read it closely.)<BR/><BR/>So for me the strongest defense of IC as an interesting story is still the metafictional interpretation. Since Superboy Prime is from our world he represents the editors and writers at DC, if not Johns personally. The way Prime sees things in Alex's heaven is as disjointed scenes replayed simultaneously and endlessly, just like you and I can re-read the same comic books over and over, and also experience different points in the DCU timeline simultaneously. So appropriately it is Superboy, like us generally and the editors in particular, who changes continuity with his punches of frustration.<BR/><BR/>Furthermore, even though Kal-L has not been active in the DCU for 20 years, it is Superboy Prime who, like us, has continued to live with the Golden Age Superman in his/our consciousness (if not conscience). Finally, I think the most interesting feature on this reading is that Superboy is the ultimate, acknowledged villain of the piece. Perhaps a Morrisonian influence?<BR/><BR/>Still, my theory isn't airtight yet; for example, who would Alex be? His Machiavellian control over the events in Villains United, OMAC, Day of V., and Rann-Thanagar to create the conditions necessary for his scheme (revealed in IC #4?) naturally resembles the macro-editorial process in the DC offices to set up the event of IC itself, through those very miniseries. Their deus ex machina activities are unavoidably correlative. Alex is also the true editor (in the practical not executive sense, like a copy editor or film editor) who picks and chooses the bits he likes and pastes them together.<BR/><BR/>It seems fitting, since the comics industry is probably the most metatextual of all story-telling media. Daily interviews with writers and artists mean that more is said by creators about their stories, before they are published, than is contained in the stories themselves. (Imagine novelists discussing the details of their unpublished work and interacting with their readers to the same degree.) We know so much about each issue in advance that after the climax of the release date, reading the actual comic becomes merely the denouement. And the actual story is seen through a double vision that takes into account what we already know about the production of the text while we are reading the primary (?) document. Just like the Conrad quotation at the end of your post: "the meaning of an episode was not inside like a kernel but outside, enveloping the tale which brought it out."<BR/><BR/>Sorry this was so long but your post got me thinking! Actually, I think it would be more accurate to say that Superboy is only us readers, while Alex is the DC editors who are on our side, trying to fix what we ask them to, but who just screw everything up in the end. So that's why I think Infinite Crisis might still be an interesting read hereafter, though it is not really different from interpretations of the original Crisis on Infinite Earths.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13604760.post-1147790370621450762006-05-16T10:39:00.000-04:002006-05-16T10:39:00.000-04:00In fact, the more I think about it, it's almost as...<I>In fact, the more I think about it, it's almost as if the evil Superboy is Johns's nasty (but to me hilarious) satire of what could be called the "Rob Liefeld moment" of the 1990s.</I><BR/><BR/>Holey Moley ... you're dead on. Had Liefeld redesigned Superboy in the 90's, he would have ended up looking just like Anti-Monitor Superboy!Mark Fossenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03623615263972844957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13604760.post-1147786797518495312006-05-16T09:39:00.000-04:002006-05-16T09:39:00.000-04:00ragnell - very well said--makes sense to me! Espec...<B>ragnell</B> - very well said--makes sense to me! Especially this: "The enjoyment is in wondering whether or not the writer can pull it off, and watching how he does. It has nothing to do with the actual plot." Some postmodern fiction writers (like Martin Amis) tackle crazy projects like writing a novel in which time moves backwards and every event takes place in reverse (Time's Arrow) and the reader is more concerned with how he will continue to pull off this amazing technical feat than withthe story. But as you say, it's really in media like comics where the "will the writer be able to rise to the challenge?" becomes a more crucial component of the reader's pleasure. Love this point--thank you!<BR/><BR/><B>tom</B> - thanks for that link, and btw, I can't get that "real time"/sporting events analogy out of my head. That's EXACTLY what the experience of reading these miniseries are like for me: they produce all the involvement and "highs" of a sporting event and then...suddenly it's over and we're on to something else. When I go back and browse through the original <I>Crisis</I> I don't usually read it--I just look at the "highlights." Interesting theory about Superboy Prime/Golden Age Supes, too--I think you're onto something. Johns is <I>such</I> a thematically-oriented writer that I'm sure his Superboy/Superman fight <I>does</I> at least parody how "we readers, our minds warped by decades of grim 'n' gritty, have 'killed' the values of the Golden Age, from whence all our heroes have come?" In fact, the more I think about it, it's almost as if the evil Superboy is Johns's nasty (but to me hilarious) satire of what could be called the "Rob Liefeld moment" of the 1990s. And there he is at the end, trapped in his cell, but threatening to come back! (Or maybe, he's just every fanboy's repressed id...!)<BR/><BR/><B>Prof. Fury</B> - my pleasure--and thank you for the witty and very kind provocation that got this one rolling! I've been wanting to sort out my thoughts about IC for some time and your post really made me think. I can definitely see why Big Events aren't for everyone, especially in an internet age. As you say, we don't really "need" the series when we have the online hype months and months in advance, and the series, as you argued in your post, really IS just a kind of extended embodiment of that hype--a narrative advertisment. But omg, as is now obvious, do I ever enjoy THAT. Which means, perhaps, that certain types of comics have something interesting (or depressing, depending on one's point of view) to tell us about the pleasures of capitalist consumption: how that nexus of seriality-(non)reading-repeat buying feed into each other. Wednesdays--and that moment of walking into the comic store and buying my stash--still produce a physiological experience of euphoria for me, and in some ways, that long walk home (or busride) with a bag full of unread comics can be more exciting than the actual reading experience itself. (Though of course it shouldn't be!) How's that for scraping the bottom of the barrel in search of a "futurity"-fix? Sheesh.<BR/><BR/><B>jon</B> - fantastic reflections. And you raise a great question about "our" Superman. I didn't mention it in the post, but the forthcoming film should be extremely interesting in terms of how it deals with this issue. Will Singer's Superman be a Philosopher King? I don't know, but the first "teaser" preview (Superman-Christ) suggests that the film could go in either direction. So much of its aesthetic is pastoral (for which I have a weakness) that I fear it may end up being the guiltiest of pleasures--i.e. a "Return" of the 1950s nostalgia that Superboy bludgeons to death in Infinite Crisis. I guess we'll find out soon!<BR/><BR/><B>mark</B> - ha! So true--my favorite reviews are always those that take genre fully into account. I agree with everything you say about the buttery popcorn...except for the giant hands. I mean, giant hands, mark! (And it didn't help that the comic was released around the same time that the <A HREF="http://www.nexbase.net/photo-gallery/Scary-Movie-4/scary_movie_four_ver3" REL="nofollow">Scary Movie 4 ads parodying War of the Worlds</A> were out. I could not get that stupid image out of my head long enough to take those hands even as good popcorn--but maybe that's just because have a juvenile sense of humor.) You have also made my day by saying that you found this <I>Crisis</I> had more human emotion than the original--I though I was the only one who thought so. The original Crisis had one or two unforgettable moments and real emotional payoffs, but because of the foregrounding of the Superman/Lois Lane/Superboys/Trinity characters this time around, I felt like there was more to grab onto emotionally in this series, despite its flaws.Jim Roeghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16381244745309535742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13604760.post-1147707602386375102006-05-15T11:40:00.000-04:002006-05-15T11:40:00.000-04:00One of the early lessons I was taught in dramaturg...One of the early lessons I was taught in dramaturgy/criticism is that you need to evaluate was something <I>is</I>, not <I>what you wish it would be</I>. To slam <I>Infinite Crisis</I> for its Plot Hammers, Jumpy Characterization, and Giant Hands is like attacking <I>Mission Impossible</I> for its <I>explosions</I>. It's not <I>Watchmen</I>, and wasn't intended as such: <I>Watchmen</I> did a crappy job of rebooting the continuity of a shared universe.<BR/><BR/><I>Infinite Crisis</I> delivered what I was expecting: a massive cast, a huge scope, and plenty of widescreen moments. The fact there was actual human emotion at times (unlike the original <I>Crisis</I>) was just butter on the popcorn.Mark Fossenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03623615263972844957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13604760.post-1147702252612493942006-05-15T10:10:00.000-04:002006-05-15T10:10:00.000-04:00I've been chewing on the idea that Old-Supes and S...I've been chewing on the idea that Old-Supes and Supe-Prime represent different times and encapsulate the ideals or the remembered pop-culture notions.<BR/><BR/>I find it interesting that the embodiment of the '90s grim 'n gritty comics beats the memory of the orginal to death. It basically kills him and we remember that more than the original. Sure, older supes lived in time where right and wrong were easily defined although we know differently since we see the assumptions he operated under. Superboy-Prime is pretty much the same thing representing a different time with different ideals. You got it done because you were right and damn the consequences. Which is surprisingly similar to one another the more I think about it.<BR/><BR/>But where does that leave "our" Superman. I thik he, more than the other two is meant to represent our world (not Prime). His failing is that he thinks about his actions and consequences. IT turns him immobile but at least he thinks about it. It allows him to take action. Oddly, I see him as a philosopher king.joncormierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00865627865285684437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13604760.post-1147701632853631782006-05-15T10:00:00.000-04:002006-05-15T10:00:00.000-04:00Jim, thanks for this thoughtful and persuasive ess...Jim, thanks for this thoughtful and persuasive essay; it's an even more adept form of pomo jujitsu than I had been expecting you to deploy! You've convinced me that series like this one have to be taken as a breed apart from regular superhero comics, a different genre with different expectations. <BR/><BR/>In fact, this essay made me cast my mind back to the first Big Even that I read in real-time, DC's 1988 series Millennium. I remember almost nothing about the series itself, but I do remember that it introduced me to Suicide Squad, Justice League International, and a host of other DC titles I would never have otherwise read. And for that, whatever its other failing may have been, I'm thankful to it.<BR/><BR/>But I'm not sure it's the sort of series I *need* anymore; like most comics geeks, I'm on the internet and have access to the months of hype that precede every new title, every change in writer or artist, every shift in editorial direction. I don't need a Big Event to introduce me to a company's New Direction, and since I don't need it--since, for me and for most readers, that function is pretty superfluous--I'd love it if it could be an enjoyable story on its own merits. So it may just be that BE's aren't for me, though I do love me some futurity also. And you know, I liked 52 #1. <BR/><BR/>More on this after I've turned in my grades for the semester, perhaps...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13604760.post-1147698344674822992006-05-15T09:05:00.000-04:002006-05-15T09:05:00.000-04:00I said "continuity gymnastics" with regard to GL: ...I said <A HREF="http://comicsatemybrain.blogspot.com/2005/10/idenfinite-crisis-at-about-23-mark.html" REL="nofollow">"continuity gymnastics" with regard to <EM>GL: Rebirth</EM></A>, but I probably wasn't the only one.<BR/><BR/>Geoff Johns is a mystery wrapped in an enigma to me. He seems to ascribe to his villains aspects that commentators see in him. Zoom torments the Flash to make him a better hero, Per Degaton uses the word "retcon," and the apparent allegorical uses of Kal-L, Superboy-Prime, and Alex Luthor.<BR/><BR/>I did a post for The Great Curve recently that lamented the fate of Superboy-Prime, because he represented us Earth-Prime readers, but the more I think about it, he is just a tool, and any allegorical significance he might have is probably accidental. Surely Johns doesn't mean to suggest that we readers, our minds warped by decades of grim 'n' gritty, have "killed" the values of the Golden Age, from whence all our heroes have come? Surely that can't be part of DC's pandering to aging fanboys like me who remember three decades' worth of stories?<BR/><BR/>Jim, I'm with you -- these Events aren't meant to be read as standalone stories, they're supposed to be experienced in real time. They're like sporting events -- by and large, we don't watch the entire game over again, we just enjoy the highlights on SportsCenter.Tom Bonduranthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07209820912557263080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13604760.post-1147673902666113862006-05-15T02:18:00.000-04:002006-05-15T02:18:00.000-04:00Oh, man, I can't remember the name of the guy who ...Oh, man, I can't remember the name of the guy who said it, but it was about <I>Green Lantern: Rebirth</I> and it applies to <I>Infinite Crisis</I>:<BR/><BR/>Continuity Gymnastics.<BR/><BR/>It's not about reading a story so much as watching an artist (a writer) take a pile of chopped, frayed, discarded plot threads that seem to clash colors in the pile and weave them together into a pleasant tapestry with a clear picture. The lead up mini-series? Those started with previously woven tapestries that were haphazardly sewn together, the build up to IC was the unweaving of those tapestries so that they could reweave them as one coherent universe.<BR/><BR/>As a writer, Johns isn't a storyteller. His boss has an idea of what their fictional world should look like, and he dabbles in what it was in a way to make it look that way.<BR/><BR/>This way, the tapestry's rewoven in a way that makes sense to the regulars, and it's clear to weave siultaneously forwards and backwards to accommodate the newbies.<BR/><BR/>Whether or not that goal was accomplished, well, I'm not ready to say yet (haven't seen enough), but I'd say it's unfair to approach something like this as a "Story."<BR/><BR/>Its got the trappings of a story, but really it's just Continuity Weaving or Continuity Gymnastics. A Spectator Sport. The enjoyment is in wondering whether or not the writer can pull it off, and watching how he does. It has nothing to do with the <B>actual</B> plot.<BR/><BR/>*Stands back and squints at the metaphor mish-mash* I sincerely hope that makes sense to someone else.Ragnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00373059673228550524noreply@blogger.com